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Two-piece sides?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9810		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  letseatpaste [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:57 am ]
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The macassar ebony thread made me remember that I have a nice 3" wide, 2" thick, 36" long quartersawn piece of macassar ebony that I picked up from a lumber yard in Ohio a couple summers ago. I had planned on using it for fingerboards.

So I was looking at it and wondering if it'd be possible to join two 3" wide pieces to make sides, and then do a 6-piece back. I'm pretty sure I could make the back joints nearly invisible, but I wasn't so sure about how the sides would fair if I joined them and then bent them. I'm assuming a Titebond or HHG joint would come apart during the bend. What about Titebond III or Gorilla Glue or some such glue, could I get a good joint that would withstand the heat of bending and keep the joint tight?

Just a curiosity at this point... bad idea?
Author:  Rod True [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:11 am ]
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I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, but I don't think I'd do it. I think it would work and I would think that using TB III would be the glue to use.

I purchased a large piece of macassar ebony a couple of years ago and I've gotten lots of FB, bridges, binding and head plates out of it. I calculated the purchase price of each of the items by the quantity I could get out of the board and when it was all said and done, I saved my self a ton of cash.

I know what's coming next from some though "your time cutting is worth somethin" but seeing as this is a hobby I'll say to that.....So what, it's a hobby . And my time in the shop doing anything is priceless.

So maybe do a cost comparison to see if it's worth while using it for other items.

Check out Howard Klepper's web site and look at dovetail madness to see a cool two piece sided guitar. It's awesome.
Author:  Michael Dale Payne [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:11 am ]
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You would need to joint and candel the pieces and provide good side bracing. Like Rod said a lot of work.
Author:  letseatpaste [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:45 am ]
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The time spent joining the plates wouldn't be that big of deal. I think it might be interesting from the an economy/efficiency point of view, getting the most out of a narrow piece of nice wood.   Plus it might look nice with matching back&sides/fingerboard/bridge/headplate.

Still, I think it'd probably be put to better use making a bunch of pretty fingerboards and head plates. I've got plenty of nice backs and sides in my stash waiting to get put to use.
Author:  JBreault [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:49 am ]
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You could even add a contrasting line at the joint like this:


I think it would look cool.JBreault39064.7024768519
Author:  dgalas [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:52 am ]
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I think I'd laminate the sides as well as making sure that joint is about as
perfect as you can get it. I laminate my sides anyway, but I'd definitely
laminate if doing a 2-piece side. I say go for it!

Author:  Colin S [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 9:58 am ]
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I'd have a go, but I'd bend them unjoined, but at the same time then glue them after. You could always add a line of purfling in the join I think it would be great. And, Torres made a guitar with a six piece back and a different one with two piece sides. Go look at Howard's site, he's done it, but as Dave said laminate them, Howard laminates his sides anyway.

Colin
Author:  letseatpaste [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:44 am ]
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Here's the ebony in question. If I did it, I'd probably build a 0 or 00-12 with it. It's 46" long. I figure I could take 2 slices to yield 4 bookmatched back pieces, then 4 more slices for the sides, which would leave enough extra for the lower bout wings on the back, plus extra for headplates/bindings/etc... That should leave enough ebony for some fingerboards.

Author:  dgalas [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:19 am ]
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Sounds like a plan Jon! One thing you might want to consider is laying out
the back "strips" the way Cumpiano does when he builds with many back
pieces. You can see an example in purpleheart on his website:

Cumpiano - work in progress

Just a thought. Good Luck!
Author:  crowduck [ Wed Dec 13, 2006 11:37 am ]
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As Colin said you could bend side halves unjoined, but at the same time. If using a solid bending form with heat blanket it might be possible to join/glue the halves after bending right there on the bending form. I'd cover the form and cauls with some wax paper, and rig something to clamp at the edges, perhaps some of those spool clamps.

CrowDuck
Author:  John Lewis [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:52 am ]
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Hey Jon-

I emailed Stefan Sobell about a year ago and he gets multi-piece sides by glueing them together with an automotive glue that withstands high temps and then bends to shape. He has thin strips of old growth Brazilian rosewood so he makes 2-piece sides and 5-6 piece backs into some great guitars. I can't remember the name of the glue but if I come across the info I will let you know.
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:07 am ]
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[QUOTE=John Lewis] Hey Jon-

I emailed Stefan Sobell about a year ago and he gets multi-piece sides by glueing them together with an automotive glue that withstands high temps and then bends to shape. He has thin strips of old growth Brazilian rosewood so he makes 2-piece sides and 5-6 piece backs into some great guitars. I can't remember the name of the glue but if I come across the info I will let you know. [/QUOTE]

And in my view Stefan Sobell is second only to George Lowden as a Steel String guitar builder!

Colin
Author:  Pwoolson [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:07 am ]
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Assuming that you are able to make a perfect joint, it will be stronger than the neighboring wood. I think the only cleveat will be the heating process. Which, if you use poly urathane glue, will not be an issue. I'd be inclined to do the opposite of what Colin suggests and bend them glued. (please, Colin, no offense indended). I just think it would be much easier to get a clean joint if they were flat pieces. And poly is somewhat heat resistant (to the temps we are using anyway) so creap will be a non issue.
Practice on a piece of scrap and see what happens. And be sure to let us know the results.
Author:  Colin S [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:14 am ]
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No offense Paul, my assumption was that they would be laminated onto a one piece backing, when bending unglued would not be a problem. But never having done it, I'm floundering in the dark. I wonder what Howard does as he's used two piece sides and also laminates them? He's the expert round here.

Colin

Author:  Brock Poling [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:15 am ]
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I would definitely try this on a test piece first.

If the glue shifts a little during the bend then your sides are going to end up not lining up quite right (possibly a ridge?) that will be on both the inside and out and will need to be sanded out... and in this case sanded out of EBONY no less.

I think experimenting with glues first will be the ticket to success.

I would be interested to hear form anyone who has actually done this regarding how they did it and how well it worked. I have several BRW and Coco billets that are stunning and would be fantastic if we could get this to work.

Author:  letseatpaste [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 2:31 am ]
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In the Fleishman class we used poly to glue maple strips to the wooden bindingfor side purfling, then bent the binding/purfling as one piece. It worked well, didn't have any issues with the glue creeping, though I realize this is a little different gluing two side halves together instead of a thin maple strip.

I do remember the poly being a mess to work with, TB3 is rumored to be a little less so if I remember reading that correctly.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:21 am ]
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FYI:
I have used Titebond III in the bender and it holds up fine to the heat. I don't have any experience with Polyurethane glue though.

I am also in agreement that you would be much safer using laminated sides and bending them after gluing them. You don't have to use the same wood on the inner lams either.
Author:  Howard Klepper [ Thu Dec 14, 2006 4:19 pm ]
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I join before bending. Polyurethane has done about the best, but it has come apart some during bending, as has everything else I've tried. It isn't a big deal, since if I do a multi-piece side, I laminate an inner side to back it up, and any separations can be put back together when laminating. I laminate after bending.

Except for Dovetail Madness, I've always inlayed a decorative strip of purfling along the joints before bending. I use CA glue for this, and it does OK in the heat. Some portions of the purfling separate a little, others not.Howard Klepper39066.0142476852
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